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    Armour in Afghanistan

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    Bisley_Bob
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:56 am

    The Canadians and Danes have put their Leopard tanks into the country, the Canadians have however lost one to a huge IED. Should we be deploying CR2, despite the bulk of the fighting in Helmand being done in the Green Zone where tanks can't go? Are they just going to turn into easy targets confined in the deep valleys of the mountainous regions around Kajaki? Or do they have their place?

    Yes

    Post  2ndTankie on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:10 pm

    I think we should deploy tanks to afghan, you see all sorts of videos and documentaries with patrols being engaged my tree lines and with in complex's which in my eyes could be sorted with some generous application of HESH ! think a Javelin is 60k a pop. and there should never be a price to high for added force protection and fighting power. Imagine a troop deployed to a FOB, i very much doubt they would get attacked once the taliban feel the force of the CR2 in cooperation with apaches.... Unstoppable !
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    Bisley_Bob
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    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:55 pm

    I'm sure they would do well, but i can't help but think they would be confined onto the roads and tracks and become ripe pickings for IEDs, although to be honest, i can't see terry finding it easy to penetrate them. What's their mobility like in comparison to say mastiff? Could they go places it can't or are they less mobile?

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  2ndTankie on Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:33 pm

    I think the mastiff weights about as much as a warrior. the whole mobility and accessibility issue is not a massive factor as HESH doesn't need a road. e.g a Gunner looks at a house fires the laser at it the computer does some maths while the nipple is pressed and the house disappears. haha. While we are giving some grunt who barley cant spell Javelin a 60k piece of weaponry and off he tabs ! Tanks would only be limited in the thick green zone however a role as fire support group or intimate support would prove lethal ! God knows how much a JDAM or 1000lns bomb costs to drop but it makes more sence to me for a Panzer to lob a 17kg round more accurately from a safe distance.

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  TankNutDave on Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:33 pm



    I don't think deploying MBT's are the real answer. from what I've seen its the lack of mobile artillery cover and therefore think it would be far better to get more AS-90's & MLRS on the ground as they have proven successful platforms in Afghanistan.

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  M1A2AbramsSEP on Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:42 pm

    This is a tough Question. a M1A2 and Challenger 2 would certainly make me think twice before attacking a patrol but tanks would be extremely vaulnerable in that region so WAH-64s/AH-64Ds and Artillery support would probably be more useful in Afganistan.

    E-man 122
    Lance Corporal
    Lance Corporal

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  E-man 122 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:59 pm

    I believe the Tanks give huge advantages to the support of infantry. Lets not forget to seriously damage an MBT it takes a considerable amount of firepower which puts a strain on the Talibans resources with explosives. Canada sent its Leo 1 for god sake and they where not prepared for the type of combat in the dessert, yet the tanks where hugely effective and carried a huge intimidation factor. Those facts alone prove that no matter what the enemies tactics the MBT was always have a place on the Battlefield. By the way Leo 2a6 rules!!

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  TankNutDave on Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:27 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Sht-9mudc

    It's IED's and belly attacks that worry me and are the most concern. As you can see from the video it really is a major concern.

    E-man 122
    Lance Corporal
    Lance Corporal

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  E-man 122 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:44 pm

    yeah but isn't the new 2A6 M meant to protect better from such attacks? The germans lost one of their new Leos to those attacks and crew survived and I heard the vehicle could be salvaged
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    Bisley_Bob
    Staff Sergeant
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    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:24 am

    Quite an interesting (and long) article on armour in Afghanistan from the Canadian point of view. It seems they've been a real asset to their forces.

    http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_10/iss_4/CAJ_vol10.4_03_e.pdf

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
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    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:37 pm

    Has there been any official word or hint that a CR2 deployment to Helmand is being considered? Seeing at all the new kit slapped on for operations in Iraq, would seem like an idea worth considering, so long as they can move without being complete IED magnets.

    Also, I knew we'd sent 4 ''GMLRS'' at one point (don't know how many are there now),but I haven't heard about AS-90s going to the 'Ghan yet...maybe after we've packed up from Basra?
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    Bisley_Bob
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    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:01 pm

    It would be sensible to assume that some heavy gear is going to get put into afghan once Iraq is all finished. As for CR2 being deployed, i heard it on ARRSE i think, judging by how the Canadians are loving their armour out there i cant see why we wouldn't do it.

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:17 pm

    Hopefully, I guess time will tell.

    I was watching this danish documentary the other day, sort of their own version of Ross Kemp following their lads around in Helmand. They had part of one episode following the danish Leo 2s deployed at FOB Armadillo, one of the tankies said that the Taliban really hated 'em and had given them the nicknames ''magic gun'' (one second your there, the next you're not) and ''the new evil'' Twisted Evil
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    Bisley_Bob
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    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:27 pm

    wilmet wrote:Hopefully, I guess time will tell.

    I was watching this danish documentary the other day, sort of their own version of Ross Kemp following their lads around in Helmand. They had part of one episode following the danish Leo 2s deployed at FOB Armadillo, one of the tankies said that the Taliban really hated 'em and had given them the nicknames ''magic gun'' (one second your there, the next you're not) and ''the new evil'' Twisted Evil

    That sounds good. What documentary is this? Might it be available with English subtitles? I'd be pretty interested to see it.

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:02 am

    Bisley_Bob wrote:That sounds good. What documentary is this? Might it be available with English subtitles? I'd be pretty interested to see it.

    I'll find you the link for it a bit later on (about to set off to work), as it is (or at least was) available on the website of the channel that made it (DR1 or somesuch).

    Otherwise it was called ''danskere i krig'' (the danes and war). It had no subtitles when I saw it though.


    EDIT: righto, lunch break Very Happy here are the links for all 4 episode (right click + save as or just stream)

    http://dr.dk/Forms/Published/PlaylistGen.aspx?qid=923426&bitrate=high

    http://dr.dk/Forms/Published/PlaylistGen.aspx?qid=924851&bitrate=high

    http://dr.dk/Forms/Published/PlaylistGen.aspx?qid=926091&bitrate=high

    http://dr.dk/Forms/Published/PlaylistGen.aspx?qid=927477&bitrate=high

    IIRC the Leos show up in episode 3...there's even some GMLRS action.

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:44 am

    FOCUS news agency reporting 4 danes injured in IED attacks, including an injured tankie:

    http://www.focus-fen.net/?id=n172810

    Copenhagen. Four Danish soldiers were wounded in the explosion of two roadside bombs in separate incidents in southern Afghanistan Monday, military officials said, AFP reported.
    Three troops were hurt when their armoured vehicle hit a home-made explosive device south of Price base, the Danish military leadership said in a statement.
    They were rescued from their blazing vehicle.
    Another soldier suffered injuries about an hour later when his tank hit a device near Armadillo base.The four soldiers whose wounds were described as minor were taken to the hospital at Camp Bastion where Danish troops in Helmand province are headquartered under British command.
    Denmark has deployed some 700 troops as part of NATO's International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, most of them in Helmand.
    There are nearly 70,000 international soldiers in Afghanistan helping the government fight an extremist insurgency led by the Taliban, who were in power between 1996 and 2001.
    Twenty-one Danes have died since their country joined the campaign in late 2001.

    Speedy recovery, vikings

    I'm wondering if this isn't a case of journalist who don't know the difference between a land rover and a tank, but they did seem to make the distinction between ''armoured vehicle'' and ''tank''.

    Big question, did the danes upgrade their leos after the IED attack that left one crew man dead and 3 injured last year (belly armour or such, anti mine kit like on leo 2A6M)?
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    Bisley_Bob
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:59 am

    Denmark has sent 700 troops!? That's not even a battle group!

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:59 am

    Bisley_Bob wrote:Denmark has sent 700 troops!? That's not even a battle group!

    ISAF ORBAT and numbers as of mid february 09.

    http://www.nato.int/isaf/docu/epub/pdf/isaf_placemat.pdf

    Seeing as the americans are the biggest contributors in ISAF with 25 000 troops(not counting the 17 000 on the way or the OEF contingent), followed by UK at 8300 and then Germany with 3460...yeah, it quickly goes down.

    Then again that has to be measured against the total size of each country's army, other commitments etc etc. The Danes are providing more than their fare share of the heavy lifting in what's one of the most dangerous areas, the same can't be said of other countries (of course the fault lies entirely on politicians from those countries).

    There wasn't much detail surrounding this latest attack, so no real way of knowing how badly the tank came off, luckily they did say that the crew wasn't too badly hurt though which is a good thing.

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:09 am

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25148917-421,00.html

    Oz is considering sending more troops, perhaps even Abrams tanks, this article suggests.

    Loadsa bollocks or real possibility? IIRC the dutch are going to wind down operations in the area come 2010 (unless Saint Obama convinces 'em otherwise), so more diggers on the ground may not come amiss!

    Just how many M1A1s could they send if this is genuine?

    wilmet
    Staff Sergeant
    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  wilmet on Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:06 am


    Thursday, March 12, 2009
    Chief of the Land Staff: US Army needs tanks (or something similar) at Kandahar
    Lt.-Gen. Leslie gives his advice:

    PANJWAII DISTRICT, Afghanistan — Three years of fighting in the dust-choked lanes and tangled grape fields of Panjwaii district have taught Canadian soldiers some hard, bloody lessons.

    As the U.S. prepares this spring to surge 17,000 fresh troops into Afghanistan, they have two words of advice for their American colleagues: Bring tanks.

    By definition, the war in Kandahar is a counter-insurgency conflict meant to be fought with agile infantry, not burdensome iron beasts such as the Leopard 2A6Ms.

    The 64-tonne battle wagons were intended to slug it out with Soviet armoured formations on the plains of Europe, not necessarily chase bands of lightly armed insurgents through the desert.

    But since the landmark battle Operation Medusa in the late summer and early fall of 2006, the Leopards with their 120-millimetre cannon, have become a critical component of the army’s arsenal.

    “You don’t need a lot of them,” Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, the chief of land staff, said in a recent interview with The Canadian Press.

    Canadians learned early when combat heated up that punching through the thick mud-walled compounds and grape huts, turned into redoubts by Taliban, was almost impossible with light weapons and required the heavy power of tanks.

    It is an experience the troops — especially the country’s top soldier — are eager to pass along as American reinforcements arrive.

    “Once you’ve got them and once you can see what they can do, it’s very difficult to convince yourself that they’re not absolutely essential,” Leslie said in an interview from Ottawa.

    The Americans are expected to deploy the U.S. army’s 5th Stryker Brigade to Kandahar [emphasis added] — a unit battle-hardened on the desert plains of Iraq. Those 4,000 soldiers travel in wheeled armoured vehicles similar to Canada’s hardy LAV IIIs [brigade's Stryker versions here, more on the brigade itself here].

    Leslie said he’s recommending to American commanders that they bring “things much akin to a tank,” either Bradley heavily armoured personnel carriers [but no big gun] and/or M1A2 Abrams tanks.

    As fighting raged in the summer and fall of 2006, Canadian commanders discovered to their horror that the light armoured vehicles could not roll through the rippled grape fields and often became stuck.

    Troops with Canada’s only tank regiment, the Lord Strathcona’s Horse, currently deployed in Kandahar said they’ve been called on many times to haul wheeled vehicles out of tough spots.

    One such operation in western Zhari district in December saw the Leopards spend 14 of 16 hours pulling wheeled vehicles out of the muck on a dried up riverbed.

    “We were a big tow truck with a gun on it,” declared Warrant Officer Richard Delaney, who is originally from St. John’s, NL.

    The effect the tanks have had on the unpredictable guerilla battlefield is undeniable, forcing Taliban militants to hang back or retreat once the lumbering armoured vehicles appear.

    “They don’t want to come out play when the tanks are around,” said Cpl. Aaron Hodgin, a Leopard gunner.

    “It’s usually a lot quieter when we’re around.”

    Sgt. Frank LeClair, a tank commander originally from Moncton, N.B., said his Leopard was bringing up the rear of a column that had been ambushed by Taliban fighters

    “One of the LAVs was being engaged by (rocket propelled grenade) fire,” he said in an interview.

    “Thankfully it was all landing quite short. The LAV opened up on where the fire was coming from and the insurgents didn’t back off at all until I came around the corner. As soon as I put in that first (tank) round, then it was done. There was no more fire coming from there at all.”

    Leslie said the number of Canadian direct fire casualties among the infantry has fallen sharply since the Leopards were introduced.

    The U.S. is deploying 8,000 marines to Afghanistan and many of them are destined for nearby Helmand province [emphasis added]. It is thought they may be bringing tanks [the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade coming certainly can bring tanks].

    Delaney said there’s only one thing they need to know coming in to southern Afghanistan: “Go big or stay home.”
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    Bisley_Bob
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    Staff Sergeant

    Re: Armour in Afghanistan

    Post  Bisley_Bob on Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:46 am

    That's a good article Wilmet.

    The Danish videos were good, even though I don't speak the language. But they were taken off before I had the chance to watch the last one which is a bit of a shame, I'm sure I can get it somewhere else though.

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